David, Will and Pamela discuss: Warm Home Discount; Pre-April LCWRA protection; Working age Council Tax Reduction schemes; Getting full arrears of the carer element in UC; Appealing a refusal to revise on grounds of official error; PIP and working caselaw.
Warm Home Discount
https://www.gov.uk/the-warm-home-discount-scheme
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/millions-more-families-to-get-150-off-energy-bills-this-winter
There’s no equivalent in NI but there is an Affordable Warmth scheme for private tenants which can help to make their homes more energy efficient:
https://www.gov.uk/the-warm-home-discount-scheme
Park Homes Warm Home Discount is separate & you will need to apply.
Consultation on the Warm Home Discount scheme’s future, running until 20.11.25: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/continuing-the-warm-home-discount-scheme
How to spot an energy scam
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/how-to-spot-an-energy-scam
Pre-April LCWRA protection
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2025/22
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/376/regulation/28
Working age Council Tax Reduction schemes
https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/admin/2025/2380
Getting full arrears of the carer element in UC
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/381/regulation/12
Paragraph 31 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/381/schedule/1
Para A4361 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68e7884de5f463a62cb98599/adm-ch-a4.pdf
Appealing a refusal to revise on grounds of official error
https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukut/aac/2025/332?tribunal=ukut%2Faac
Rightsnet summary (subscription required) https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/caselaw/item/upper-tribunal-clarifies-jurisdictional-trigger-for-full-merits-appeal-following-refusal-to-revise-decision-or-supersession
PIP and working caselaw
https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukut/aac/2025/307
Rightsnet summary (subscription required) https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/caselaw/item/tribunal-erred-in-excluding-the-impact-of-fatigue-after-work-when-assessing-motivation-to-complete-pip-daily-living-activities
Engaging with people in a work context should not be assessed purely on abilities at work
For working claimants, the effect of tiredness after a days work should be taken into account
A claimant’s ability must be assessed at a reasonable time of the day, taking into account ability after reasonable activities, like work
https://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=4719
Motivation linked to certain situations (like work) does not remove the need to consider motivation for the majority of the time
https://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=4842
Benefitscast November 2025 – Transcript
David Stickland: [00:00:05] Hello, it’s our November Benefitscast, and this month I’m really happy to be joined by Will and Pamela. Hello, both. Hello. And I’m going to turn to you first Will this month. So, uh, what have we got? What’s first?
Will Hadwen: [00:00:20] Well, first of all, I’ve got something topical, seasonal, which is the Warm Home Discount. Okay and this is the last year of the Warm Home Discount as we currently know it. The regulations provide for it to expire in March. Um, but in this year, it has been extended to more people, which is really good. Um, so in England and Wales, you’ll get it automatically if you’re on various benefits guarantee credit of Pension credit, Universal Credit, Housing Benefit and also savings credit of Pension Credit as well. So that’s really good. And you would need to be on a means tested benefit on the 24th August of this year.
David Stickland: [00:01:03] Okay.
Will Hadwen: [00:01:03] So that’s an expansion compared to what it used to be, in Scotland. They’ve been given extra funding. The energy supplier has been given extra funding so they can also expand the scheme, but it does depend on the supplier’s criteria. So if you are in Scotland you will need to apply unless you are on the guarantee credit of Pension Credit.
David Stickland: [00:01:22] Okay. But in England, Wales, Northern Ireland you wouldn’t need to. It’s different.
Will Hadwen: [00:01:30] You shouldn’t need to apply. No. If you’re on the benefit there used to be a requirement, unless you were on guaranteed credit, that your home is difficult to heat, but that’s gone. You just have to be on a means tested benefit. And also to flag up that if you are an energy advisor or you’re involved at all in thinking about how clients pay their fuel, fuel bills, there’s a consultation about the future of this kind of scheme. So have a look and feed in.
David Stickland: [00:02:00] Great. Thanks. And just in terms of the basics, this is, this is an amount which is credited to your account.
Will Hadwen: [00:02:08] Yeah. You don’t get the money, you get the credit, you get £150 off your fuel bill which, you know, is quite significant. And we’ve just had a rise in the cap on energy prices, so it’s always really important. This and even though in most cases you don’t have to apply, I still think it’s a useful thing for people to know about.
David Stickland: [00:02:31] Yeah. And I suppose mistakes are made. Sometimes they’re missed. And you might need to double check. Absolutely.
Will Hadwen: [00:02:36] Yeah.
David Stickland: [00:02:37] But unless you’re in Scotland, where some people might need to.
Will Hadwen: [00:02:43] Yeah. If you’re not on the Guarantee Credit, Pension Credit, then you will need to apply and you’ll need to check your supplier’s scheme as you should be able to do via their website. There isn’t an equivalent in Northern Ireland and if you’re in a park home, there’s a separate scheme. So there are, there are some, slightly different things going on there, but for most other people in England, Wales and Scotland the scheme would apply as long as your supplier is part of the scheme.
David Stickland: [00:03:09] Right. Got it. And can I check with Universal Credit? Is it any type of Universal Credit award? There’s not a requirement for income or earnings to be.
Will Hadwen: [00:03:18] No. And like you. I double checked that because I looked at it and I thought, you know, really but that is what it says on the Gov.uk website. And similarly with Housing Benefit, you know, any level of housing benefit. So, that that is a really big expansion, isn’t it? Hmm.
David Stickland: [00:03:39] And Pension Credit savings too. So that’s brought into, the criteria. Do you, do you just want to say briefly what the difference is between Pension Credit Guarantee and Pension Credit Savings for those people that might not know?
Will Hadwen: [00:03:55] Yeah. So, Savings Credit is only for the older pensioners. So that’s people who reach pension age before the 6th April 2016. And it also has a very different calculation. So instead of looking to see if you’ve got income below a certain level, it’s looking to see if you’ve got income above a certain threshold. And if you do, you can potentially get savings credit, although the amount is then reduced if you are not entitled to the guarantee credit, but it’s reduced by a taper rather than the pound for pound deduction. So it’s much, much more complicated than the guarantee credit. The guarantee credit is simply, you know, if your needs is this high and your income is this high, you’re guaranteed the difference. Whereas Savings credit is looking at first of all, is your income higher than a threshold, a bit unusual for a means tested benefit. And then secondly, it’s reduced according to a taper.
David Stickland: [00:04:48] Right. Great. Thanks, Will. That’s great. Pamela, good to see you and wondering what’s on your list? What’s the first item that you’re bringing with you?
Pamela Carysforth: [00:05:02] Well, just looking at practical timing to make sure that you are a pre 2026 LCWRA claimant, if possible. Right. Now, I know we have looked at these upcoming changes on different newscasts, so I just want to kind of keep it as a really timely reminder. But basically under the new rules, to get the LCWRA rate that we know today, £423 a month.
David Stickland: [00:05:27] Yep.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:05:28] You have to be a Pre-April 2026 UC LCWRA claimant. Got it. What that actually means is that you have to have the LCWRA element in your Universal Credit for the assessment period that includes the 5th April 2026.
David Stickland: [00:05:47] Okay.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:05:48] And this is very strict, very timely. But we have also got the three months relevant period that can complicate things somewhat. Sure. So if I have LCWRA and I’ve already got, you know, I’ve always fit the criteria. I do still need to have made a claim if it’s. I’m new to Universal Credit. Right. At least three months before the 5th April 2026.
David Stickland: [00:06:15] Okay.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:06:16] And with assessment periods, the date in which you have to take action might be slightly different for an existing claimant or for a new claimant.
David Stickland: [00:06:25] Right.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:06:26] So for instance, for a brand new claimant, they’ve not had anything before. They’re claiming for the first time but you think LCWRA should exist. The point they put in footnotes that starts the start of their relevant period. And/or you can self-certify for the first seven days. Yeah.
David Stickland: [00:06:46] Right.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:06:47] Then we’ve got to go three months ahead.
David Stickland: [00:06:49] Yep.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:06:50] And then in most cases the LCARA element would be added in the month after the relevant period ends.
David Stickland: [00:06:57] Okay.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:06:59] So if you imagine if you claim Universal Credit and right from the beginning say “I’m unfit for work, here’s some medical evidence, please assess me”. Yep. And we’ve got the first three months and in most cases LCWRA will be added in the fourth month. But if you declared, say you claimed Universal Credit and it was only three weeks in that you actually ticked the box. You know, I actually am unfit for work. That changes the start of the first month. You might have lost a month of LCWRA and suddenly you’re a post April 2026 claimant and getting just over £200 a month less.
David Stickland: [00:07:41] Right.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:07:42] So it is really timely. And there isn’t one day that applies to everybody because it’s different for a new UC claimant or an existing UC claimant. So the big takeaway is have these people on your radar. You know, if there’s somebody that could get LCWRA, but hasn’t got it, then right now we need to take action. And in most cases, we need to take action before January 2026 to really try and preserve the dates and things like that.
David Stickland: [00:08:15] Okay. Thanks. So kind of as soon as possible. There’s some urgency about this for us working with people to sort of raise awareness of the importance of starting this process in time and you’ve mentioned a date there, so January 2026. But I think what you’re saying is it’s not going to be a hard and fast rule. It’s not going to be the same date necessarily for everybody, because it will depend on a number of factors, including whether you’re a brand new claimant, whether you’ve had an award for a while.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:08:45] So a brand new claimant, it’s slightly simpler, as long as you’re a brand new claimant who are on who on day one is going to start this process off. And that could be with a little bit of self-certifying at the beginning. Um, so we’re looking at a date of the 5th January 2026.
David Stickland: [00:09:04] Right. Brand new claimant immediately, starting this process.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:09:11] Yes. And that’s the latest. You know, you’re not going to want to leave it to the latest if possible. Obviously. Then and I always do this, I quite often draw it out on a piece of paper. So 5th January assessment period ends 4th February. Yeah. Yeah. So if you put in your fit note then January the 5th, February, March April you’re that first three monthly assessment period end on the 4th April. You’ll get LCWRA in the assessment period that includes the 5th of April. And you should be okay.
David Stickland: [00:09:44] Got it.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:09:45] But if it was me I wouldn’t leave it.
David Stickland: [00:09:47] So don’t leave it that long. Do it before. But we’re talking about, you know, for the sake of, you know, being absolute. You know as much as we can but also what we’re saying is it won’t be the 5th January for everybody because assessment periods will vary. And so it could be before then.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:10:05] Yes. So if you were an existing Universal Credit claimant, it’s all going to depend on when those dates of your assessment period are.
David Stickland: [00:10:13] Yeah.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:10:13] Because whenever in an assessment period you declare that you’ve got to wait the three months and then you get it in the next assessment period.
David Stickland: [00:10:23] Right.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:10:24] So if you declared it really towards the end of an assessment period, it can jog on. And depending where your periods land, it could be later. One other category of people is those claiming new style ESA.
David Stickland: [00:10:37] Can I just pause you there, Pamela. Because I, I was not going to introduce another example, but I think it might be helpful for people that are listening. So if you’re an existing claimant, then and you have an assessment period which is on the third of each month. So let’s say it’s 3rd April to the 2nd of May. And you’ve had this Universal Credit award for some time. How would that work? Can you just run through those sort of those dates again?
Pamela Carysforth: [00:11:05] Yeah. So for any existing claimant, I’d start off thinking which assessment period includes the 5th April. Right. So if it started on the third, then, the assessment period that includes the 5th April would be the one starting on the third, ending on the 2nd May. So before that point we need to have had three months with fitnotes in. So I kind of go back. This is where I start drawing it out you know. But yeah. So the assessment period ending 2nd April has to be the one in which the relevant period ended.
David Stickland: [00:11:41] Ended. Right.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:11:43] So then we go 2nd March, 2nd February, 2nd January. You must have started off this process in the assessment period that ends the 2nd January. Got it. And it can be at any point in that assessment period and it wouldn’t make a difference.
David Stickland: [00:11:58] Great. Thanks.
Will Hadwen: [00:11:59] I’d say as well that if you already have limited capability for work, but you’re trying to capability for work related activity, you don’t have to worry about this three months.
David Stickland: [00:12:08] Okay. If you’re sort of changing from you’ve had a change in your health and that means you’re you, you’re basically asking for it to be assessed as LCWRA after previously having had LCW. Right.
Will Hadwen: [00:12:22] Don’t worry about when the assessment happens. Make sure that you ask for it before the 6th April.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:12:28] Thank you Will. Yeah.
David Stickland: [00:12:29] Okay. And what was your other point, Pamela, about new ESA?
Pamela Carysforth: [00:12:32] Just on new style ESA. It’s got its own version of a relevant period. So you’ve got to wait 13 weeks before you get any support group in there. And the rules are the same. Now, occasionally that can mean because months aren’t a set number of weeks. The rule is for Universal Credit, if you’re on ESA and getting the support group by the last day of that assessment period, you get LCWRA in that assessment period. So you might have somebody who has never claimed Universal Credit, but might be entitled to a bit of a top up who is on new style ESA in the support group, as long as they claim Universal Credit before the 5th April 2026, then they should be a Pre-April 2026 claimant. On the other side of that, there’s also just a little tip that say that new style ESA claimant only thinks to claim Universal Credit in May. It doesn’t matter that they’ve been in the support group for years. This rule is all about whether you were getting UC with LCWRA for that assessment period.
David Stickland: [00:13:42] Okay.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:13:42] So there’s not much protection for ESA support group claimants if they’ve never gone on Universal Credit.
David Stickland: [00:13:48] Right. So look out for new style ESA claimants act again. Act quickly, certainly between now and April, but as soon as possible in order to get that higher amount, which as you say, is another £200 per month potentially.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:14:02] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David Stickland: [00:14:04] Cool. That’s really brilliant. Pamela, I appreciate that. Will, back to you. Item number two. Oh, Will, we just need to get your microphone on.
Will Hadwen: [00:14:15] Sorry. Now, my second item is something that people might have seen already, but I just thought we’d flag it up on the Benefitscast, which is, the High Court found that, Trafford Council’s, Council Tax Support scheme was unlawful and quashed it. Now some councils use the phrase Council Tax Support, some use Council Rax Reduction. Doesn’t really matter. Legally it’s Council Tax Reduction. But anyway, there were various things that were unlawful about this scheme. One is the way that the council had adopted it, who’d been party to the decision making process. And another was it was irrational because it double counted income. So income that counted for UC was then counted again for council tax support. It discriminated against disabled people. It indirectly discriminated against carers. And broadly, that’s because they’re more likely to have certain types of income that the scheme has taken into account. Okay. Um, so this isn’t going to be the case for every Council Tax Reduction scheme that you don’t like but if your scheme seems to do things like double count income or it seems as if the adverse effects of the scheme are worse for disabled people or people associated with disabled people, then it’s worth having a look, of course, we’ll put a link to the decision and some, and I think press releases about it in the sources so you can have a see.
David Stickland: [00:15:57] Okay. And I imagine this is this is going to be quite difficult for people to identify, right?
Will Hadwen: [00:16:05] Yeah. Yeah I would agree with that. So to give an example of something that I think wouldn’t be unlawful. A lot of schemes don’t necessarily give any give anyone maximum council tax reduction. They might say for example, that the maximum that you can get is 80% of your liability. Now that is not it’s not I don’t think that’s unlawful. That affects absolutely everybody and says you can’t get more help than this. Um, having different capital limits as well, which might be lower than 16,000, that’s probably not unlawful. But this kind of thing where you’ve got income being counted twice and income that disabled people are more likely to have, that could be unlawful. So have a have a look out for it. And, um, yeah, if you’re not sure, um, I’m not sure that we’re the best people to ask because you probably need a lawyer ultimately but it’s certainly worth a think. And just on that note, the Council Tax Reduction working age regulations in Scotland have recently been changed so that they now don’t count the transitional element of UC they used to in certain circumstances. Right.
David Stickland: [00:17:17] Okay. Thanks for flagging that up. And suggesting that people look out for that, like you say we will include some references and some links for people. I frequently find people confusing, mistaking council tax discounts and exemptions for Council Tax Support, as you’ve described it, or sometimes known as Council Tax Reduction. This is confusing in itself. How would you how would you sort of explain to people who perhaps don’t understand this, you know, what is the difference between the system of council tax discounts and exemptions as opposed to Council Tax Support?
Will Hadwen: [00:17:56] Sure. So broadly, um, council tax discounts and exemptions and nothing to do with your income. They’re to do with things like your disability, your status as a carer, your status as a student, the fact that you’re the only adult in the property and things like that. Right or sometimes the fact that you’ve had the property adapted for your disability, but they don’t relate to your income.
David Stickland: [00:18:20] Right. Whereas Council Tax Support does, because it’s basically a means tested benefit.
Will Hadwen: [00:18:25] That’s correct.
David Stickland: [00:18:26] And you can get one or the other or both.
Will Hadwen: [00:18:28] You can absolutely get both. And I often talk people through having a little checklist where, you know, first of all, you’ve got your bill, then you check and you’ve reduced that bill by any discounts or exemptions. And then finally, can I apply for Council Tax Support against the remaining liability. Yeah.
David Stickland: [00:18:45] Yeah. Good. All good stuff, difficult stuff. But, uh, thanks. Good stuff, nonetheless. So, Pamela we’ve definitely got time for number two and the second one of yours. Let’s find out what that one is.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:18:59] Well I’ll do the quicker one first. And I think, um, just looking at the carer element in Universal Credit. So there are rules hopefully people are familiar with them about um, if you get awarded a qualifying or a relevant benefit for somebody in your benefit household.
David Stickland: [00:19:17] Right.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:19:18] Then there’s no time limit to declare a beneficial change. Right. So for instance, if your child got DLA, and it took a year to get the DLA in place, they can go back and give you the disabled child element. Sure. Carer’s Allowance is a relevant benefit. So say I was caring for my mum and she lived in a different property and it took a year to get her Attendance Allowance. If I could claim Carer’s Allowance and that went back a year, then Universal Credit would take the care element back a year.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:19:57] Yeah. Yeah. But if I’m working. And I’m over the threshold for Carer’s Allowance; I can’t get that benefit to backdate a year. So I might still think okay. But my mum’s just got her Attendance Allowance and that goes back a year. I’ve been a carer the whole time. Can I have my money, please? Yeah, well, it’s just worth noting that those rules that make it a lot easier, the relevant benefit rules don’t apply to people who aren’t in your benefit household, and they don’t apply to your extended benefit unit, which includes your non-dependents.
David Stickland: [00:20:33] Okay.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:20:34] So it’s just a little tip to avoid future issues that. Do it anyway. But certainly if the person who you are caring for is not part of your benefit household, right? You can actually declare a change on the Universal Credit system. A change to carer status. So I’m caring for my mum, my adult son, somebody else, I’m caring for them for more than 35 hours a week and they’re not getting a disability benefit at the moment but that then gives us a date to go back to. So when that person actually gets their decision, they can go back without having any arguments about, well, did you declare that you were a carer at the point that your carer status changed?
David Stickland: [00:21:20] Okay.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:21:22] And anything like that I’d be filling up the journal just with explanations anyway. But there is a specific change that you can declare that really should make it ironclad, that if a year later your mum gets her Attendance Allowance, they should go back and give that carer’s element.
David Stickland: [00:21:36] Great. Yeah.
Will Hadwen: [00:21:38] I would just say in addition to saying it on the journal, to use the change of circumstances drop down tabs because I’ve had several cases recently where UC have gone, oh no, no, you didn’t report it because they just put it in the journal.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:21:53] Yeah. I’ve argued that at a few appeals, and the judges do seem to say, well, you know, now, we’ll accept that. But who wants an appeal if you can avoid one, you know.
David Stickland: [00:22:05] So what you’re saying, Pamela, then is you would always recommend that somebody make that notification on their online account for Universal Credit but you’re saying that in lots of cases, it should happen automatically anyway, where it’s linked to a qualifying benefit for someone in your household. But, in some cases, what you’re doing is sort of planning ahead to make sure that there isn’t a problem when in situations where it’s not automatic.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:22:32] Not quite. So say I was caring for my non-dependent and I’ve not ever said I’m a carer officially before. Then that is a change that I should notify them of, and the relevant benefit rules that kind of say, oh, go back if it’s linked to the award of a qualifying benefit, wouldn’t necessarily kick in. So they could say, okay, yeah, he has got his care his pip going back a year. But you never told us you were a carer. It’s you not notifying that change that has meant you haven’t been paid for that right. So yeah, especially when it’s not in your benefit household, not in your extended benefit unit, then you need to tell them my circumstances have changed. I’m a carer.
David Stickland: [00:23:20] Right. Perfect. Thank you. Will, so I think final item we’ve just got time for. What’s that?
Will Hadwen: [00:23:29] Well, it’s quite a significant case, I think. So difficult to deal with briefly, but I think we can deal with it fairly briefly. And that is in a recent, judgment published that says that you can appeal a refusal to revise on grounds of official error. So just to remind you what that is, if you ask for a decision to be changed more than 13 months after the date of the decision, you can do that on grounds of official error. But what if the DWP say there’s no official error, for example? So what this, um, judgment says is, yes, you can appeal that and moreover, when you appeal it, the appeal tribunal can look at the whole appeal. They may or may not decide there was an official error and there doesn’t have to be one. And they can look at the whole thing again once you’ve got your appeal admitted and look again and with a revision, you are always appealing the original decision, which is why the tribunal can look at the whole thing again. It would be slightly different if you were saying, I asked for you to supersede and you didn’t supersede. And I think that refusal to supersede was an official error. Because then the tribunal has got to decide whether there were grounds for supersession. But anyway, it really is quite a big deal in terms of what you might otherwise think were out of time issues. But that you’ve got to start off by saying there’s an official error, if these grounds are made up, there’s an official error. Um, so you’ve got to think about what that official error is. You can’t just say that there was one.
David Stickland: [00:25:24] Okay. And what might be an example of official error.
Will Hadwen: [00:25:28] So in the two cases, the two claimants that took this appeal one of them had said, you there was some errors in your assumptions, and then went through the PIP activities that affected her and how her condition related to those. So that was quite a clear potential argument. And the other one was about, the substantial risk route to LCWRA, where it was found that they weren’t at substantial risk if the work related activity was tailored. So the claimant said, well, that means if it wasn’t tailored, I must have LCWRA or be treated as having it. So those are just two examples of of how you could potentially show an official error in the argument or the assumptions that the DWP had made.
David Stickland: [00:26:28] Great. Thank you and just to reiterate then, the other sort of very key message that we’re giving here is that, yes, we’re always thinking about deadlines and time limits, but it may be that, uh, some decisions can be looked at again even when they’re from then were made quite a long time ago, more than what we might think of as the usual sort of 13 months, which is the one month plus the 12 months if you’re late.
Will Hadwen: [00:26:53] Yeah. So just to be really clear, what we’re saying is the original decision, the decision you’re trying to challenge might be more than 13 months ago, but if it’s a sanction decision or it involves an official error, you want to make an argument that it involves an official error, then you can have a go. And if that’s refused, you can appeal. But your appeal time limit remains the same. So you’ve still got to stay within the appeal time limit when you get your reconsideration notice.
David Stickland: [00:27:19] Right to follow it up with the actual appeal. Great. Thanks. Pamela, just very quickly, I think what’s your what’s your final item? I’ll ask you to briefly sort of summarize what it is, and then we’ll share on our links. some, some other information.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:27:34] There’s just another piece of case law that’s kind of supporting PIP claimants who are working. Okay. And it is a really, really interesting case from my point of view, because what it’s looking at is how fit and able you were to do those activities after work in a in a very nutshelly nutshell. Yeah and basically you can kind of see where the decision came from, like, well, if you work full time, you must be able to do x, y, and z. And the argument was that, no, no, no, after I’ve worked full time and this person had ADHD, OCD issues, chronic fatigue, I said, no, no, once I’ve done my work, I’m incapable. You know, I’m in an altered state. I’m incapable of doing much else after that. And the tribunal said, well, actually, PIP is a benefit for people in work and out of work. So that is the day to day life that this decision should be based on. This person works a reasonable job. How are they at the usual time of day when people do certain activities. And we should be measuring, measuring it on that. It shouldn’t be an imaginary exercise. If you didn’t work and you were just at home and your only job was to get washed, dressed and fed, how would you be then? You should be deciding it based on what that person’s day to day life is like. And it’s quite reasonable that for an in-work / out of work benefit, how you are after work is factored into that, factored into that decision and we’ll put it in the links. But. Right. Briefly, there are quite a few other cases that say very similar things.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:29:17] We should be looking at how you are at the time of the decision. Your difficulties still do need to be linked to a health condition. So for instance, say you were fit and well but had an exhausting job. Well, your inability to make a meal isn’t linked to a disability. Yeah, so there still has to be that causal link, between fatigue or something still linked to your disability. But I think sometimes when people are applying for people helping people with PIP, there might be a bit quiet about the fact that they actually work. It’s like, no, we’re meant to be looking at their situation, these circumstances. And I think making those arguments and saying, this is how this person gets through their day to day life. If they work, that has to involve work considerations, and it is incumbent on the decision maker to be considering it from that angle.
David Stickland: [00:30:06] Great. Thanks. That’s really helpful and as you say, well we’ll share those links people can look at those and find out more. Just a reminder. Thank you both it was really, really brilliant as ever, just a reminder that people can use our advice service of course, if they’ve attended training with us recently. If not, you can sign up for other courses on our website. Thanks again. Both. Thanks everyone for listening. Cheers. Goodbye.
Pamela Carysforth: [00:30:30] Thanks. Bye.